The OSRL Podcast: The Response Force Multiplier - Episode 7

Emma Smillie  00:03 

Hello and welcome to The Response Force Multiplier, a podcast that explores emergency planning and response. On The Response Force Multiplier, we bring together compelling experts and thought leaders to provide a fresh take on key issues and cutting edge techniques in this field. In each episode, we'll dive into one aspect, and we'll use OSRL's unique pool of experts and collaborators to distill that down into actual tools and techniques for better preparedness and response to incidents and emergencies. My name is Emma Smillie. We are Oil Spill Response, and this is The Response Force Multiplier. In today's episode, we're thrilled to have Rob Bly join us to share his journey through emergency response from his early days and hands on operations at OSRL to leading crisis management at various companies. We'll dive into his career, discuss lessons learned and explore the evolving nature of crisis management. 

Dave Rouse  01:00 

Hello, Rob, thanks for joining us on The Response Force Multiplier. Just to introduce yourself, could you say who you are, what you do, and a little bit about your background and how you came to be in emergency response? 

01:15 

So my career, kind of in emergency response, began with OSRL. So I started as an entry level responder, going out for the first two years, basically cleaning boom and equipment coming back in from various spills that I didn't go on clean up, or getting back into the stockpile as quickly as we possibly could. And that was very much focused on the technical aspects of oil spill response. And that was really about training, exercising, learning, both all good grounding, moved into different areas in and out. Training was in there for two years, and that was just a blur of constant travel training people on oil spill around the world, which is great going and seeing the world and seeing loads and loads of different operations, different operators, how they do things rightly or rather. And it was really good experience and really valuable. But it also gave you that kind of cultural aspect of working with different cultures around the world and understanding their differing approaches to crisis management and emergency response. And then obviously transitioned into the duty manager roles, up through various other roles in any organization. And then got quite interested in being involved with BP, quite impressed with how they conducted themselves during that albeit on the back of a tragic event, so that I moved across and transitioned into BP, which is a kind of a big time oil spill world, and some large group practices that were being implemented across the organization, which gave you some real weight to be able to do some good planning. And I think I was a real message from the top within BP that was applied across it worked, you know, effectively, to kind of drive that oil spill preparedness. So worked through there a number of different roles. The focus area was trying to broaden myself out from an oil spill advisor. I've got lots of different exposures across the people aspects. Supporting those within the North Sea was really good. But it also had great opportunity to go and look at major exercises across the globe. Got involved with that kind of global response team, and that's a great initiative within BP. Really about value. I really took a lot from it being able to talk to other responders and get that mindset of if we are needed we can fly to anywhere and to kind of support an organization as needed. Then, following 10 years of BP, I needed to challenge it. I needed a change, and so started working at Dounreay, or DSRL, as it was then. So  Dounreay, is on the very north coast of Scotland, so it's a geographically very remote location. So have a lot of different challenges to athe coordination of the response side, but it's very complicated and aging facility. It's all in decommission, but it's a very challenging site, though it's effectively had three reactors on site, all of them in various stages of decommissioning. Big facility, lots of different challenges, as well as the ongoing decommission side as well, and from there now, transitioning my new role to a different organization where it's more focused around it, but it's obviously a global organization with large numbers of people, lots of different facilities, lots of different locations, so the challenge will be different again, but not got there yet. So can't really talk too much around that in terms of what that's going to look like. I'm really hopeful of a great organization to go and work with. Sowe'll see how that lands. 

Dave Rouse  04:07 

So you've got quite a broad experience, Rob, but the theme is definitely Emergency Preparedness and Response crisis management. Would you consider yourself a thoroughbred responder or a crisis manager?  

Rob Bly  04:20 

But you're never really a thoroughbred, particularly when you transition within and out of different industries. Different industries do things in very different ways. Can never really call yourself an expert in the entire piece. Across the whole patch, you're always learning, always kind of getting up, and there's always aspects that you didn't know, different ways of doing things, different lessons to be learned along the way. Whilst I would like to call myself thoroughbred. I think I'm still learning, still lots to be had in there. I think genuinely call them sort of an expert, and that'd be obvious, but for some challenges, but I think that's really the focus of where I've been in the last few years, is in that kind of crisis management, emergency response realm.  

Dave Rouse  04:48 

But it's definitely in your DNA.  

Rob Bly  04:56 

I think so from an early age. I think jumping into it with OSRL, that early start. Think that really sets you up sort of a career in it, and you either love it or you don't. Definitely got its intricacies and certain factors that can affect people in different ways. Definitely you have to go into as a career choice. There's that home call aspect that some people struggle with. Some people don't. Generally never really been too much of an issue for myself as times change in terms of responsibilities outside of the work, but we've managed to maintain a balance thus far. But I think emergency response has developed into a really good career for myself. I think there's lots of opportunities out there to go and get involved, learn new things, meet new people. I think what attracted me to the role at OSRL really opened up an opportunity to travel that was really, big on it, and got to see the world, and that proved to be a good call. And I think the other aspect to it is just that it was a good place to start. You kind of learn it from the bottom , learning the ropes and it was good. 

Emma Smillie  05:53 

What keeps you in emergency response,  motivates you the most?  

Rob Bly  05:55 

I think really it was an inbuilt desire to be involved and be part of a solution. And the emergency response crisis land, you always get two types of people, right? There's people who don't just stand around and look at it, look at the problem, as opposed to doing anything, kind of run in the opposite direction, and the other people kind of walk towards it and try and solve the issue. I like to consider myself to be that you see all sorts of behaviors in incidents and events, some of them good, some of them not so good, but they all contribute to the wider picture. Then you can use different people in different ways depending on how they want to behave, and can capitalize on their behaviors to deliver activity in different ways. If they want to go off and lead a group, for example, there's definitely opportunities to step away at lead a working group, but ultimately, everything's got to be working towards that solution. And I think I took a lot from the role there at OSRL. Took a lot from BP as well. There's a bit of constant learning in there. It's really that ability to then apply that into different organizations, different circumstances, different situations. I'll be honest, I do like the space. When you get into that space, it frees up a lot of the chains that would normally apply in an in day to day operation. So a lot of bureaucracy,  the red tape disappears, and you start to see organizations working as they possibly could, and start to make those quick decisions. I like that piece once you get into an event, once you get into emergency response and Incident Management, that's when the drilling and the bit of that buzz you can kind of get addicted to. And I think I like seeing things from start to finish. You start it and you very clearly finish it. That's really what keeps me in it - an inbuilt drive to be involved and part of a solution, really. 

Dave Rouse  07:33 

So from your experience, Rob, you know, you're a professional responder. You're spending time thinking about preparedness and response, and that's the main focus of what you do. But in an incident, you're working with people that have completely different day jobs that get drawn into responding, and that's not a normal thing for them to be doing. It's what they do. Once you know, you train, you exercise, but then they come into this, can anyone do it? 

08:00 

Yeah, there's an attitude that has to come with it, and people have to apply themselves into the role and understand what their role responsibilities are. I was mentioning before. You do get people who come with very different characteristics. One day, I'll sit down and work out all these different characteristics, but the people who tend to get on best are the people who kind of just open to supporting and providing a solution to the problem. You need a lot of different people, a lot of different qualities. And there is a space for everybody in you know, if you've got someone who's quite commnand chain, quite direct, you can use that in different areas and then different functions within it, with a wider response organization, there are certain characteristics you have to be quite clear on it. You've got people who are effectively using the incident as they're driving their own agenda. You're just going to be quite cautious on that, but I think fundamentally, there is a space for everybody in organizing where there is adversity, there is opportunity, and you see it kind of day to day. Can come in and, you know, step in and are able to solutionize or support or provide some assistance, then, you know, you absolutely kind of can get recognized for that. And it's sort of all about kind of recognition, but it's, it's really just highlighting that there is opportunity there for everybody. So it shouldn't be viewed as a very much kind of managerial senior roles that should be supporting us and running there are opportunities at all levels to get involved and then support the wider organization. Think for me, it's really important that there is that opportunity for everybody, that it's not just viewed as, you know, this group of people, and they are shooing everybody else out of it. There should be opportunity to get people involved and expose people to the decision making, because I think culturally, it's good for an organization to be quite open. And that is to say, this is how we're going to deal with our issues. If you want to be involved, be involved. This is the process we're going to use, and this is how we're going to drive to a conclusion, something I think doesn't get driven very hard with an organization. Sometimes there's, you know, the benefits of crisis management and kind of incident response. Having those kind of clear processes really can help, from a cultural side, of making people feel comfortable and knowing that right, this is how we're going to deal with it. If I want to get involved with this and help, this is who I need to speak to. You know, this is the process we're going to follow, so everybody's got a clear understanding, and there's not a mad panic. You don't get people running off in different avenues to find individual solutions, where the organization is going to be standing up as a whole to respond. 

Dave Rouse  10:11 

Have you got any examples of when you've seen that done really well? 

10:15 

I mean, I think Macondo is a great example for a lot of things, but I think what it did do, they brought a lot of people, a lot of different vendors, lot of different stakeholders, brought them all together into a relatively coherent organization. So I think that what for me, it was a real, a critical point in my career, really, was being involved with that and witnessing, you know, what that looked like. And I think that was a good example of this. Is how we run things, clear messaging from the top, making sure that if everyone was on board with where they were going and what needed to happen, to follow the mantra of deescalation, and then limiting the impact of an incident at all costs,  

Emma Smillie  10:51 

Any particular people that maybe you've seen in action that have really impressed you, or particular individuals, 

10:58 

there are certain characters who I've looked at and gone, yeah, They've got the house in order. You know, they're really good in different aspects, though, some really good tactical leaders, tactical managers within these organizations who know their subject matter inside and out, and could come into an incident response and really add value, really bring to bear what they need to in those type of scenarios. Numerous world of those. Some great characters along the way as well, not just from an oil spill side, but from the firefighting side, radiological side. So my previous line manager for 10 years was a great inspiration to me in terms of their approach to crisis management, the value they placed on it, but also their unwavering commitment to getting the job done, pushing it through. They really had personal characteristics, and their greatest trait was really open and responsive to kind of feedback that was provided, and was a great character to have in an emergency, because they could bring people along with them, and if something wasn't right, that's where they held the line. It was quite an inspiration to me, and really crisis management leader effectively in terms of making sure that people are okay, but also that you stuck to your line and stuck to your guns throughout to make sure you got to the best outcome as possible. There were others in that similar place, tactical emergency response leaders in there were just able to do the right things at the right times. Obviously, with an emergency response process, it's the process that drives the incident right an individual who I poured into in peace time, he fostered relationships with people. Knew exactly who he could turn to in the network across the organization, who could draw down on and who would help him out effectively. And I think that's really how he used his characteristic when it came into emergency response. There was always that lens of his character shining through and looking after people, making sure that people in a room were comfortable, but also not taking things too seriously. I think there's always that importance of perspective and making sure there's that bit of reality that goes into it where appropriate with that particular individual. It was never a dull day, shall I say. And I think it's an important thing to do to put perspective into it and keep people talking if it's too close and too formal, you don't get that discussion where interesting points might come out into the room. It's just important that that's that's recognized. Really, I think it's a good value to have. And I think if you've got people who know you have a good relationship with you, they're more willing to help you out. Again, a lot of it comes down to those characters really open, willing to share their knowledge and information and part it into others, but also keen to be challenged and pushed on to develop new technologies, try new stuff, bring in the latest widget. Let's have a go at that. See if it works, see if it's offered something different. Probably those people were bit of an inspiration. So one from a general Incident Management, line management process, and the others from a deep technical knowledge and experience. I think what probably underpinned both was a willingness to run towards the problem. They were just really inspirational people. And you see similar people, deep technical, really open, happy to share, happy to bring you along, bring you into experiences and give you opportunities to learn. But I also think this is where that kind of role for everybody piece it comes back to that people who have stepped in from their normal day job into these roles and just engage with the process and run with it, I think that's been some of the best examples I've probably seen. We've provided with the training, they've absorbed the training, they've used the process, they've engaged with it, and absolutely done a fantastic job of bringing the team together, making sure we had clear objectives, clear actions, and then a clear drive towards a solution of a problem. And it's just sometimes I just find these people just so impressive, but they can turn up, switch it on, and then just manage it. 

Dave Rouse  14:35 

So I've got a point of difference with you. I do agree that emergency response allows people who may not otherwise be involved to really shine and be outstanding in the process. And I do think using different people in different ways with lots of skill sets that you need, and you said opportunity and diversity, which I love, but I. Don't think just anyone can do it. I've seen people who might be outstanding day to day, but you put them in the emergency response environment, and this is very clearly not for them. 

Rob Bly  15:12 

Yeah, there will be certain characters who will feel comfortable in the high pressure scenarios, but I think you can still use a lot with that. So if you still need hands to do other stuff out with it, then you know they're there, and you can kind of turn to them to go and do do the operations and the lower pressure of various, things like working through risk assessments or doing heavy lifting when it comes to some of the administrative sides, some of the back crew activity that needs to be done in support of the operations. There's always a space there for people who aren't comfortable working in those types of spaces. So in that respect, it might not be emergency response, per se, but effectively, you still need to have support from there in order to assist the effective running of your emergency response organizations in the past, where you've had people who are the front line response, and you just kind of nudge them into the other space and a lot more effective in that area. And again, it's like managing a normal organization that is the same as if you're seeing things that aren't being effective or managed effectively, then you move people and you make an intervention. And when we talked about that role for everybody, it is just a process. Yeah, there are those people that are more difficult to post, but I think you can still apply them and still utilize them in different ways as part of the organization. I think if somebody wants to be there, then absolutely time to grow up. We're always fine as well. The other characters who want nothing to do with it and will stand away, and usually you don't see hide nor hair on them anyway, so it's kind of a mute point, because they disappeared and then they cheated the room so play people to their strengths.  

Dave Rouse  16:36 

The other angle on it there is you see some people, particularly with high egos or tendencies to make the response about them, and I find those to be quite unhelpful characteristics. What's your take? 

16:50 

Yeah, and I think that's where our role as crisis managers or professionals comes in. Is really a word of counsel in their ear to manage them as part of the process. And again, we've seen new resistances of that, where people have got a little bit, how would you stay over enthusiastic in terms of the authoritarian approach in an incident? Again, it's just having those conversations to say, you know, this is not going the right way. It's that general nudge. Some people take it well. Some people take it less well. But I think that's where come in to say that this is where we are, this is what I think very well, and just try to give them that nudge to try and to back off a little bit, just to make them aware of the effect of some of their behaves on the wider organization. They're standing to the side. We get a good cross section through whole organization that maybe they're not seeing from that decision making role as an incident commander or an emergency lead that's really on us. And again, if they don't respond to it, there are those options replacing bringing other people in, because you want an organization to be effective. 

Dave Rouse  17:48 

So that's easy to say, Rob. Have you got any tips for people to actually do it? What have you found to be successful when you've been in that situation, or what have you seen others do that's been effective?  

Rob Bly  17:58 

I think it's giving people the opportunity to adapt and give them that space to change. Some people will respond to it, others won't. And so you can then move them all into different areas. You see quite a bit in training and excising when you bring someone in new I think that's why training and exercise is also important, is that it gives you that opportunity to see how individuals do react, how they do respond, and how effectively they're setting their stall out. And that's why it's important as again, as crisis managed professionals, is to make sure you're giving that training and giving that feedback, to make sure that people are clear on the tone and culture that you want to foster that an emergency room. Because otherwise it's too easy just to go right you're going to be in an incident commander, and then it can go in very different directions as to how they think they should be behaving and how they should be kind of managing the team. Once you've got through that, I think during an actual event, it's really having the conversations and side conversation and giving them a briefing on how the organization is running. And then number three, really is being willing to intervene if you need to. Done it in the past. And there's different ways of doing it. It's the same with that thing, from kind of a people management perspective, you can do it the hard way, or you can kind of do it a more softer approach. It just depends on the circumstance, the situation, as to what how you need to play those cards. I think making sure you've got people responding in the right way is important.  

Dave Rouse  18:10 

What characteristicsand someone like that that would make them a good incident commander. 

19:11 

I think you have to be decisive based on the information that you have, and recognize that fact that you got to be a clear communicator in general, a learner. And I think you've got a good judge of situations so that you understand how to manage yourself and your behaviors to meet the situation. And that includes things like when to delegate, when to use the organization, when to use people in a row to manage things, and know when you need to step away and leave it to other people to manage some of the worst ones can be, yeah, those people who are the long screwdriver, you know, they'll delegate a task, but then sit in the background with the proverbial long screwdriver trying to solve the problem themselves from two tiers and the organization away, and it never ends well. So, yeah, 

Emma Smillie  19:57 

so you've had a long career from OSRL to where you are now if you were just starting out again, is there anything that you would do differently, or any advice you can give to people who might be just starting the same journey that you are now part way through?  

Rob Bly  20:11 

There is a push, and particularly in certain occasions, to appear as an expert of everything. And I think there is a reality that no one could be the expert in everything and have all the answers. So I think it's always be willing to learn and take the opportunities when they come to kind of observe and see how other people are doing it. Perspective is a good thing. Understanding how different systems work in different processes, of how different organizations have done things and then manage things in the past. It will help give you a better perspective as how you can deal with these issues. And it's not easy, because people can be quite sensitive or sort of information and material, but if it's you around and you can go and observe exercises or different bits and pieces, it's it's always useful. So, for example, the implementation of IMS is always entertaining. The variances you can get that between different organizations don't be really quite interested to see how they've applied things, sometimes how they've over complicate things, but it just gives you that perspective of, if I want to solve a problem, this is how I could potentially do it, within the framework of the IMS. Yeah, I think it's important to get out there and just don't assume that you know everything. Yeah, there's always people out there who experience something and done something in a different way. Always just be prepared to listen, learn from others who may have been there and dealt with something in a different way.  

Dave Rouse  21:24 

One of the things that I've noticed in early career emergency response professionals is now that there are clearer Career Pathways since when we started this 20 odd years ago, there's a desire to move up that progression as quickly as possible, and potentially overlook, starting at the bottom, learning the ropes there, and then moving up, as you talked about at the start. What's your thoughts? 

Rob Bly  21:52 

I'd say, Yeah, I'd agree with your observation. I think a push on a number of different angles, you know, from professional bodies, but also organizations that recognize crisis management or emergency response as a critical part of our organization. They're always keen to establish career pathways and development frameworks to allow people to see how they might progress through this organization, but also where you might then sidestep left or right into different roles as you progress in the career end. But I think it's really good for emergency response and crisis management to see that there is a career pathway, because I'll encourage people to stay within the profession, but I think also it helps other people realize what development, what kind of characteristics individuals feel the crisis management have, and the benefits they might be able to offer in their areas of the organization. There's a lot of similarities between other areas. There is opportunity in there to the main sideways, if people wish to other fields, HSE, but also potentially towards engineering or something alongside, where you've got those project management skill sets around different bits and pieces coming through. You know, previous organization I worked at had just started pull together some pathway being focused on training and exposure and learning, but it was really just identifying where you need to go to progress. Because I do think it has been one of those ones, particularly in the world of health and safety, where often posted within they've quite often got very developed career pathway information. I think crisis mode as a whole have lacked behind that.  

Emma Smillie  23:16 

It sounds like learning has been a consistent theme throughout your career.  

Rob Bly  23:19 

Yeah, a big one,  

Emma Smillie  23:20 

any particular key lessons from your career, any mantras you develop in the different roles, 

Rob Bly  23:26 

just goes back to that. Never assuming that you know everything. Have the background process in your back pocket of how you might solve the problem, but always be open in the room, engaging different people, different characters in the space, to bring them in, changing roles and apply things into different industries is difficult, but I think there are definitely different ways of doing things in different industries and different factors that you need to be very much aware of. It's important that make sure you do your background before you even walk into something from a learning side, just be open and be prepared to learn.  

Dave Rouse  23:56 

Is there anything that you've seen from outside of the oil and gas industry that you think, okay, oil and gas could benefit from reflecting on this and perhaps thinking about what they can take from it by way of lessons or structures or approaches. 

24:09 

I think there are certain aspects that are more beneficial that could be taken away. Can tend to be around culture. So if you talk about nuclear, they're very focused on radiologic hazards, and everybody's aware of those emergency implications of that. And it's so well drilled, so culturally embedded. Is just everywhere. Part of that process is everyone understanding it, everyone knowing it, and knowing how to respond to that in an incident. And sometimes I think it's just really well embedded. It's almost like second nature. There's no real discussion. Things just happen, and it just works the way they've drilled that down through the years has really served them well, but I think that's probably one of the aspects. I couldn't put a finger on how exactly that's been embedded, but it's just been fostered through years and years of experience that have provided lessons learned. And I think within the radiological community, there is a very strong sense of trying to share those lessons learned, which I think helps with that. Because people want to learn from experience, because of the potential consequences within a radiological safety sphere, their ability to share lessons learned was really quite good. Lots of different forums, lots of different groups that were all feeding stuff and information back across the forum, you could pick up on take lessons where people were very open, but I think they do that really quite well. From cross industry, I think there is a tendency in some space to be a little bit more guarded on that, terms of what information they're sharing, what their potential ramifications of sharing that information might be. And I think it's that almost learning from experience piece. I think that's what tends to drive that culture within the radiological safety side, is is making sure that they're on top of that, that they aren't seen as the repeating incidents, 

Emma Smillie  25:39 

looking back at previous incidents, what's the lesson that we have never really learned? 

Rob Bly  25:45 

Always learning exercise. There will be something around communication. Communications is one of those things. It's very difficult to get it perfect, and when you don't get it perfect, there is always a lot of noise around it, because something didn't get told and information didn't make it from a to b and therefore the next effect can't be implemented. The other aspect, I do think, and it's it carts back to another piece, is, is some of the lessons learned piece, different industries do better than others, but I do think the lessons learned piece, you can still find yourself making the same mistakes in certain areas. When you're coming out of an incident, you're coming to that recovery mode, trying to get back into normal working patterns. And therefore you go in out and you've still got all these actions to close out, and you can still find in the bottom, it's some of the minutia that might not get addressed. Some of the big ticket items might get addressed, but some of the lower, smaller items may get missed, and you can find yourself making those similar mistakes.  

Dave Rouse  26:35 

So come on. Then, you know, in this 20 years, Rob, what are your tips to make communications not feature in the after action reviews. 

Rob Bly  26:43 

The challenge with it is procedure versus experience. If you try to over proceduralize things, different people won't be able to follow it. You won't be able to tick all the boxes, and you'll end up in a position where I said, Well, it wasn't in procedure, so I didn't do it. And I think it's just reinforcing whether you can through training and exercise and exercising, making sure that you are drilling people, making sure that your process is as clear and concise as possible. You need to have a documentation and the process to support your response that people actually want to pick up and run with. You see it too often where a document is just over complicated, people just aren't interested in the relevant response in terms of reading terms of documentation, think it's it's about making sure they're simple, so that you can at least hit your core communications and the focal points. And it's not just comms, as in notifications to stakeholders or things like that. This is just general communications within rooms, individuals within an organization talking to there's connectivity between tactical and strategic teams. It's connectivity between your operational and tactical levels, making sure that that flow is working effectively. And just testing it. This is where this rolls back to corporate investment, or kind of organizational investment within crisis management and emergency response. You need to be given sufficient time with people in order to actually train them properly, exercise them properly, and test these interfaces. And this is where, going back to those lessons learned, if you don't give that time, you can't expect a perfect outcome at the end of the day. But I think that's the real piece, is making sure that organizational investment into crisis and emergency response program, so that you can get the commitment of the people on the ground and that the importance of this is recognized across the organization. It's too easy for crisis line, particularly, which ultimately is a cost, a line item our budget for it to be pushed the start line and marginalized in the same way, crisis managers also need to recognize the balance that needs to be between operational delivery and having all these people attempting to train as professional responders, because ultimately, they're not  

Dave Rouse  28:47 

like, balance between investment in emergency response versus operational delivery. 

28:53 

Yeah, it's finding the balance and making sure you're at a point where you're comfortable with the lessons learned coming out of the exercises. And it's like, okay, we recognize we're not going to be able to be perfect in this area. This is why we'll keep training that we'll keep working out and put it as focus areas. But ultimately, it goes back to working out what the actual mantra is coming down from the top of the house, and I think that really sets the tone for the whole organization. You asked me earlier about what I learned from my career paths and changes. I think one of the pieces get in as high up the tree as you possibly can, in terms of shoe aims, the kind of the process to make sure you get the tone of the organization and where you're at with it. Because when you're setting off on a journey with an organization for crisis management and emergency responses is really well, if I'm going to be doing this, I can put forward all these bits and pieces, proposals and plans and exercise. But ultimately, this is not sponsored or owned by the top. It's going to be incredibly hard work to both get budget for it, but more difficulty is actually to get the engagement from the people around you, because that is the real thing. That is a challenge is if you don't get the noise coming from the top that is positive, people won't recognize it. All they will hear is having really got time to come to an exercise. How we've got time to cover this training? Not, you know, this is part of managed training. You need to come and attend this. So you really need to get in, get a tone, and look for that corporate sponsorship and ownership, and then that appropriate messenger from the top, just at the time, is 

Emma Smillie  30:16 

it becoming harder or easier? Because I remember a discussion post COVID, it seems to be that, you know, it's getting a bit easier. Crisis Management was a bit more recognized. Do you think we are going back a bit on that? Now? 

Rob Bly  30:27 

I think it's cyclical. Post Macondo is all the big focus on multiple capability and Incident Management. Post COVID, it moved the light shot onto business continuity and was organizational resilience through time, the focus of COVID weighing on the resilience aspect, I think, as you would in any space, it's just peaks and troughs all the way through. I think that's really the crisis management professionals role is to make sure that we try and maintain that focus. Keep reminding individuals, keep that corporate memory going to say, This is why we need to do it. This is a potential impact. So this is why we need to be prepared, and this is why I need this annual program approved and sponsored and supported across the organization. It swings and roundabouts. I'll come and go. It'll come and go, look the next big thing will come up, and a few years time, I'll be able to push in certain areas, but it's trying to maintain nudge that bar forward, nudge as high as you can, and try and keep it there in some places as well. You might be pushing against an open door. This is the thing, when you go to an organization, they're not yet. We need to do this. Everybody kind of recognizes it, and that's that's a good position to be in. 

Dave Rouse  31:30 

One of the best engagements that I've had in the last 12 months was we were delivering crisis management training, and the CEO had been put as an optional but, you know, hadn't committed to attend anyway. They walk in the room first thing on the Monday morning, looked around, said, Where's the rest of my team? And was on the phone, calling them in. And suddenly everyone was there. Everyone was attentive. And just that tone, the culture that he set of expectation of we are going to do this properly, and then the attentiveness that he showed through the training, and this is a busy guy, just set the tone, and you knew that the culture of that organization was appropriate, correct? Was going to be effective in helping them anticipate and manage incidents.  

Rob Bly  32:11 

Well, yeah that's a really good example of where someone was actually taking it and owned it and managed to influence people to get into the room. I sometimes don't think whether senior leaders know what sway and influence they hold over the rest of the organization around these things, because it adds massive weight. Somebody knows the CEO, for example, is going to be in the room that people turn up and want to be in the room same time. It's important that that engagement is there. You know, you talked about, is there a space for everybody in an organization? There's a role for everybody in an urgent response? Again, I would say, yeah, it's also there is opportunity for everyone. Can demonstrate your capability. You know, the shackles are off. You've got to put them to solve needs, to get after it. The focus the organization is on this issue, all those burdens that were previously holding you back and slowing you down, not there anymore. And it allows you to focus. I always say, watching an organization work with an emergency response during an incident is often the best, most effective time you've seen that organization operate. You've got all the kind of technical people in the room you need, you've got access to resources. You've got some of the burdens, the red tape you might have to go through has been reduced, and it allow you to get on a focus on the challenge, maintain safety throughout, no compromise on that side, but make sure to drive it through. This is really is often when you see organizations be most effective, it's also great to see sometimes it's people working on it. It just brings out the best in people, in my mind. So yeah, there is opportunity in amongst it. 

Emma Smillie  33:37 

If somebody's going to take one thing away from this podcast, what would that one takeaway be?  

Rob Bly  33:42 

I think crisis management is a career pathway. There is a career in it. It's not just a stepping stone. There's a lot of different skill sets that you can gain from a career in crisis management. It gives you opportunity into other avenues. But obviously there's a career there. Should you wish to pursue it? Think that's probably the takeaway for me. 

Emma Smillie  34:02 

Thank you for listening to the response force multiplier from OSRL. Please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and stay tuned for more episodes, as we continue to explore key issues in emergency response and crisis management. For more information, head to oilspillresponse.com See you soon.