The OSRL Podcast: The Response Force Multiplier - Episode 6

Podcast Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

blue, mindset, red, people, moment, world, response, acknowledge, common language, performance, challenges, gazing, years, work, helpful, choose, respond, situation, unhelpful, education

SPEAKERS

Martin Fairn, Emma Smillie

 

Emma Smillie  00:03

Hello, and welcome to The Response Force Multiplier, a podcast that explores emergency planning and response. On The Response Force Multiplier, we bring together compelling experts and thought leaders to provide a fresh take on key issues and cutting edge techniques in this field. In each episode, we'll dive into one aspect. And we'll use OSRL's unique pool of experts and collaborators to distill that down into actual tools and techniques for better preparedness and response to incidents and emergencies. My name is Emma Smillie. We are Oil Spill Response. And this is The Response Force Multiplier.

 

00:43

In this episode I sit down with Martin Fairn from Gazing Performance to discuss the importance of mindset and mental resilience in high pressure situations. We dive into the Red2Blue methodology, a practical framework for managing attention and emotions and explore how it can be applied in various sectors including education, sports and emergency response. Join us as we unpack the power of mindset and learn how to navigate the challenges with greater focus and clarity.

 

Emma Smillie  00:51

Hi Martin. Welcome to the response force multiplier. Really pleased to have you here. It's great to be talking to you after Andy hosted his Red to Blue podcast a few months ago. And now we've got you here from Gazing Performance.

 

Martin Fairn  00:59

Yeah, fantastic. And I'm delighted to be here as well. Thanks for the invitation. And looking forward to the conversation today.

 

Emma Smillie  01:04

Could you start with telling us a bit about yourself your background, how you came to be a part of the team that founded Gazing Performance.

 

Martin Fairn  01:10

So I'll do a little bit of pre gazing, I spent most of my life playing rugby, so I was at college. And then I got a job in sales from a company called Xerox. And that's what I did through all my early business career till about 1998, which is when I met with three other partners originally in Gazing, one of who I'd worked with at Xerox in the world of training, and one of whom is a forensic psychiatrist, a guy called Dr. Ceri  Evans, who some of you who are interested in red to blue and performing under pressure may well have read the book that Ceri wrote about it. And then another guy who's a graphic designer and a wonderful guru, if you will, like when it comes to performance and mindset and and some of the elements it takes. So we got together and we set up Gazing Performance as a training company. And that was where we started in everything from sales and management and leadership in the business sector. But very specifically focusing on the idea of doing well under pressure. And very clearly realizing that mindset was a fundamental aspect of that, and that shifted into 2000. So it was quite early to be talking about mindset in anything other than maybe sport, or as a mental health challenge. So since then, we really built it, developed it and continue to do that. Now as we got to where we are today with Gazing Red to Blue.

 

Emma Smillie  02:20

That's a really interesting mix of people there with a lot of different skills that I guess you will complement each other really, then

 

Martin Fairn  02:26

I think that's the best way of describing it. We used to say it's a bit of an eclectic mix, I mean, Ceri would readily say, I know absolutely nothing about the world of business, he happened to have played professional football for his country. And for a team called Oxford United reds, he was a black belt, seventh dan in karate. So we had some real specialism around that area, I'd spent most of my first 15 years at work in business, different areas of business leadership, and the other guy was a trainer. So I think we didn't come at it from a training background, we came at it very much from a performance background across different environments. And straightaway, that led us to the connection to human beings, recognizing that they're the common factor with most of the areas we look at. And also acknowledging the fact that pressure was a factor in how well people were able to do what they do. Sport was an obvious place to go after, you didn't have to look too hard in the world of business to find different examples of treasure and the impact that had so that was how we continue to build and develop the programs that we've got and the different approach.

 

Emma Smillie  03:23

What position did you play in rugby out of interest

 

Martin Fairn  03:25

I was a fullback in those days

 

Emma Smillie  03:26

I was a scrum half

 

Martin Fairn  03:28

Were you?. Very cool. See, they will always had a lot to say. They always annoyed everyone else on the field. Yeah, I'm sure that wasn't you.

 

Emma Smillie  03:38

Yeah I would suspect, guilty as charged on that one,

 

Martin Fairn  03:42

But you can't play a game of rugby without a scrumhalf. So there you go.

 

Emma Smillie  03:44

You can't, you know, you can't, so, for people that haven't heard of the red to blue methodology, could you just give a brief overview of what it is and how it's used?

 

Martin Fairn  03:53

Yeah, sure. So Emma, I know you and Dave, and some of the team are really engaged in it. And it's been a privilege to work with you all, as we got involved in the emergency response work that you do, and the role that mindset plays in that that's a good place to start. So if you reflect on three areas, and then I'll lead that into red to blue, the first one is that rather than starting a conversation about training, or learning or development, actually, a conversation starts first about performance. So what does it take to contribute to people being able to do well, or whatever they do, which is why by the way, we're happy to have a conversation about sport as happy as we are to have a conversation in education, about with teachers or about students who have exams and all the things that they go through, or in business or specifically in emergency response. So you start a conversation about performance, you then look the notion that there is pressure everywhere, you tend to have a conversation about performance. It comes from a variety of places. Sometimes the pressure is actually what we create in our own world and what we put on ourselves, and so performance and pressure and then the question really that led us to red to blue was what role does mindset play. And if there's an acknowledgement that mindset mentality has a part to play in our ability to do well when the pressures on them, what could you do to provide a simple, practical, accessible way of describing it, of learning about it. And our real breakthrough, we feel around mindset is to acknowledge the fact that it's a skill. And so with that in mind, we develop the idea called redhead bluehead, that red to blue. And that's when it came up. For those people who have a natural or practical interest in the psychology that sits underneath it. Or even indeed, the neurology associated with brain function it comes from cognitive psychology. Actually, it's not exactly true, our brains don't only function on one extreme or the other. It's not, we're always red, or we're always blue, or we're either one or the other. It's more than there's a lot of movement, we're pretty fluid, in the way we react to situations. And red to blue just gives you a practical framework for locating where your attention is at any moment in time. A skill we develop red to blue, at its overview level, is really providing you with a practical way of going the first job is to recognize where your attention is, because actually, our energy tends to be drawn to where our attention might be, particularly in response to difficult moments and challenging scenarios. And if that's the case, then once you recognize where your attention is, the question is, is it in a useful area? Is it focused on the next job, or whatever your job might be? Or is it diverted and distracted by things you can't control or by situations that you are dealing with that you feel uncomfortable? If that's the case, then you've got to accept the fact that your attention is diverted. And the next bit is to choose where it would be helpful to put your attention for a more useful outcome or useful response to the situation. So really, that notion of a simple framework, accessible, easy to understand very practical to do. That gives you the three stages of recognizing where your attention is, acknowledging the fact that it is your attention it is not the situation or the referee, as you scrum halves always used to blame. But then about choosing where you place your attention. So recognize accept and choose.

 

Emma Smillie  07:01

Yeah, so one of the questions I always get asked, actually is why red and why, blue? Why those two colours?

 

Martin Fairn  07:08

It's a good question, because actually, there are one or two slightly confusing aspects out in the world of mindset at the moment. There's the zones of regulation, for example, that's being deployed within education that tries to attribute emotions, to colours, so that they're connecting, the quick answer is that colours are easily memorable. They bring a sense of recollection to the process. When you think about red versus blue. Naturally, there is a level of unhelpful, emotional heat associated with your attention being distracted, which is why we leaned towards red heads, not because there's no emotion on the blue side, actually, you will know when things are going well, when you're doing well, when you're focused, when you've got the intensity in the right place. There's plenty of emotion in that place, particularly when things matter. But actually, the red head really indicates that it's unhelpful, somewhat misdirected emotional heat, which is captured best by the red side, versus the blue, which captures a calmer, clearer feeling of being focused in control, clear about the scenario and most aware of what the helpful response should be. People often relate it to heat versus water or ice. And that can be quite helpful in a way I guess the thing was, it's to do with imagery, it's the mental nature of the images. And that's why red head versus blue head is quite helpful. Everyone goes yeah I get that.

 

Emma Smillie  08:29

Yeah it makes sense. I think my children when doing the zones of regulation, because we now have a discussion about the different colours. And I always say, it's really simple, you only need two actually, then there's a Green and a yellow, and they've tried all sorts of things.

 

Martin Fairn  08:29

But you know what a really nice thing about that, and I'm getting told this more by teachers I work with in education is what they find with other aspects that are introduced around mindset and other ways of trying to deal with some of the mental health challenges that we're facing just broadly across the world, and certainly in education, is that what red to blue doesn't do is pigeonhole you or label you as being one thing or the other. It really provides you with that fluidity that is more representative of how we function as human beings. Sometimes our attention is diverted and distracted and not in a helpful place. And other times it's focused and on task, and we're doing what we want to do or what we know matters in that particular situation, I think without judgment, and that's probably the thing that I often get asked about, with athletes or in school, that red to blue comes without judgment. And maybe that's the thing because we live in a world that is full of judgment right now. And maybe that's helpful.

 

Emma Smillie  09:05

Yeah, absolutely. Actually, the your work of education really fascinates me would be great. If you could talk a little bit more about how you've been working with schools.

 

Martin Fairn  09:43

Yeah, if I go all the way back to the beginning, where we knew that we were unconstrained by sector that we chose to work in, primarily because we understood that performance was linked to humans, and how well humans adapted to the scenario of a situation. So that's why we did some early work in education. That's why we've always been able to take what we do into different sectors in business. And it's why sports has been an obvious place for us. Education to me, if you said to me, what would we really, really like to do with Red2Blue it would be to deploy in the education sector across the world, for two reasons. One is, we always knew mental health has existed, everybody knew if I go back to where I was born, everyone's talked about mental health, but with quite a, it's a problem that needs fixing approach to it. And so we're now facing in the world, this mental health challenge, and the level of anxiety that seems to have gone up significantly, whether we think that's true or not, it's certainly what the young people are experiencing. So I think in the education sector, both for the teachers and students, we're seeing mindset as being a factor that needs embracing needs a simple practical way of developing it, both for the teachers, and for the students. And so we're finding, once we introduce red to blue, much like we've done with you and Dave and the team at Oil Spill Response, it's then handing it over to them and say they know the children, they know the education environment, let's see how you bring red to blue to life in that environment. So without making it something separate, just allowing them to integrate into the teaching they do into the day to day lives that they have as teachers and specifically that students with no age limit, by the way,

 

Emma Smillie  11:20

No, I know, this very well, with my four year old even she resonated with the red and the blue head.

 

Martin Fairn  11:25

Absolutely. I have a feeling that what we may have done over the last recent years is removed some of the empowerment to seek to be creative, to respond to not be judged just to respond in different ways. And my view of that red to blue is one of the things that brings back to people is the level of empowerment, you get to choose, you get to choose your response, you get to acknowledge when it's a good response, you get to recognize when it's not, and you get to choose how long that lasts, and where you put your attention. Even at a young developmental age, that notion of you being empowered to choose, or being able to, to acknowledge when actually that's not a helpful response, even as a young person, you sort of get that.

 

Emma Smillie  12:03

And it must be a trend because we went to the cinema the other day to see Inside Out 2. If you've seen it that introduces anxiety into the life of the main character, and you have there's a moment there. And I was like this is so red to blue, there's joy talking to anxiety about the circles of control. And there's things we can control the things we can't control it. And the fact that that is a mainstream film just shows how much something like red to blue is needed.

 

Martin Fairn  12:27

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. We have a vision that says, as you well know, red to blue for everyone anywhere at any time. And that says there's 8 billion people who could benefit from it. I'm not naive, I realize how stupid that might sound. But why would it stop us? Why would that try and limit what we do, because we know how powerful how practical how engaging it can be. So we should work to distribute across the world. It's not limited by gender, it's not limited by culture is not limited by age and experience. And because much of the work that we do will be through a foundation as we continue to grow. Which means that actually where it might be limited by the financial resources to get access to it, we need to take that barrier away. And make sure that that red to blue gets out into all the places that people need it because we're just giving a simple framework and language and tools just to help people deal with the challenges they face in the lifestyle, we've now got

 

Emma Smillie  13:17

Are you setting up the foundation, as well or is it already set up>

 

Martin Fairn  13:20

We've been doing foundation work. And we're now building more structure into the foundation with more purpose behind it in terms of distribution, and looking to fund it in ways that will get it out into the education system and into the broader areas across the world where there's quite clearly some value in supporting mindset, but not a lot of access to resources to help do it.

 

Emma Smillie  13:39

So mental health has been seen as a bit of a negative thing with the stigma around it. What are your thoughts on mental health?

 

Martin Fairn  13:45

Well, firstly, pretty much everyone I know is experiencing mental health challenges in some way, either themselves or people around them, the circle seems to have got smaller and smaller, maybe it's because of the world, we're now talking about and acknowledging it. But yet still, I suspect it comes with a difficulty of expressing it, of discussing it, and to remove some of the stigma associated with really acknowledging that it exists. And I'm not suggesting that red to blue is a replacement for mental health support when and where it's needed. Of course, that should be in place. And there is dramatically more resources needed in that area. But if just generally in the lives that we all face, or the performance in sport, or in business or in education or emergency response, or things that you deal with, if we could just have a simple framework that acknowledges without judgment, the role that mindset will play in helping us deal with those responses in building the mental skills, building our mentality to support everything else that no we have to get to grips with, then I think that's a major step forward. Because we're removing the difficulty that comes with complexity, the difficulty that comes with just the fear of having a conversation because it might come with judgment or lack of normalization of a redhead response and the feelings that come back. Here's one of the things that you often hear, you've got to control the controllables I mean, everyone talks about it the moment and you go intellectually that is true, practically, for people with emotional responses, it's really difficult to do what red to blue gives us the space to do is acknowledge that actually, I am experiencing something that I can't control. But I do feel anxious associated with that. I am responding to it in an unhelpful way. I got to acknowledge that to genuinely accept and free up my attention, so I can get it focused on what will be a more useful path for. That for the is the piece I think the red to blue will really provide a pathway to

 

Emma Smillie  15:33

Yeah, I think there are so many uncontrollables these days as well, that it's overwhelming, isn't it

 

Martin Fairn  15:39

From controlling your three, four year old five year old to get them to do what they want, all the way through to the macro economic climate? All the challenges that we're facing the existential threats that can be really overwhelming for many people. But what the hell do you do mentally to respond to those scenarios? And I'm not saying we got the only answer, but it seems to be a helpful perspective to help people navigate through them.

 

Emma Smillie  16:04

It's about developing mental resilience, isn't it? A lot of it.

 

Martin Fairn  16:06

I think that's the outcome. Yeah. You just build up a bit of mental toughness, without judgment, just go yet. And you've got some skills now that to help you deal with stuff that you've already faced, you're gonna face or you're right in the middle of.

 

Emma Smillie  16:19

Are there any other sectors that you've worked, and you've seen such a really big impact of red to blue in

 

Martin Fairn  16:24

Because people talk about performance and quite naturally veer towards winning and losing and by the way, that's not just sport. I mean, people would would view exam achievement as a win versus a loss if things went well versus not going well. So education, it works there. Now, I think it works in sport. But I also think that we were engaged into the military sector by the British Army, originally with the Gurkhas. We learned a lot in understanding more about the environment, specifically around the Gurkhas and how they embrace mindset as a community as a culture, and recognize it as a factor in terms of their ability to perform well as fighting force as soldiers, both in barracks, but also out in the field, where we get distracted and diverted and caught up. Stuff we can't control is the area in the barracks. So it'd be really good for us to have a simple practical framework and language for doing that. So the military sector, the critical services, when you really look hard, and you support the notion that human beings exist in whatever factor it is, then there's an acknowledgement that red to blue could be a practical framework. And actually, we've learned over the years that there's no need to exclude other things that people find useful. So take meditation, take some of the mindfulness work that is done. If people find some of that mindset support helpful, within a broad framework, red to blue, there's no reason why you would want to exclude because at the end, the goal has to be there, make sure people feel able to respond well to the challenging situations they face to the discomfort and just make good choices about how long the discomfort lasts, and where they put your attention to move forward.

 

Emma Smillie  17:59

You work with individuals as well, Louis Alexander, for example.

 

Martin Fairn  18:02

Louis Alexander is a stalwart of the adventurer explorers. And actually, while he's close to our hearts as a business, he's he's very purpose driven. His story is connected to his grandfather spending 17 years suffering from Alzheimer's, gradually passing away. On his deathbed, Louis made a commitment to dedicate his life to raising money for Alzheimers and help find a cure. That is exactly what he's done. And he's done some crazy things around the world. He's currently swimming the seven oceans swimming a marathon swim on in each of the seven oceans, he ran 17 marathons in 17 days, there's just no end to really Alexander's sort of desire to commit to raising the money that he said, but to put himself on depression and through difficult scenario, so a brilliant ambassador, but equally as Jana brown Lee, who is right now with unbelievable climate. Tomorrow, I'm presenting to a business conference about 60 or 70, people who will be listening to us talk about red to blue, as a framework to deal with the challenges they face and then they get to listen to our Juwanna Brownlee describing how she's applied it and eight and a half 1000 meters. She's now applying 13 of the top 14 mountains and she's currently planning the 14 Squat which will accelerate your into world record as a real Rockstar when it comes to that and a brilliant the humble description of how mindset support has helped her in her words stay alive. 1000 meters.

 

Emma Smillie  19:27

Yeah, so really impressive individuals. Definitely. Yeah.

 

Martin Fairn  19:29

And by the way, we've got Abby calling. You shift from exploring to sport, and Abby is a Formula One Academy race driver. She currently is the Formula One Academy is a whole female race competition. There is no reason at all why formula 123 or four. Motor racing should be female or male. It's not it's just human beings driving quick. And Abby is determined to forge your way into that pathway. And she's currently leading the Formula One Academy and she's really really been worked out For three years on, understanding where to blue and how it supports her mentality, or the clearing the decks to make sure that her skill is a driver, the decision making on track and off track that really determines how well she performs. But occasionally she knows that sometimes our mindset might get in the way. And the quicker she recognizes the quicker she acknowledges it shifts, the better she is going to be able to perform a race weekend or a specific race. I've

 

Emma Smillie  20:23

got a question here, we didn't ask whether you had a specific story or anecdote that really truly illustrated the power of read simply.

 

Martin Fairn  20:29

So there's a couple of examples, one in the world of education, and I'll share this only because it was shared by the teachers involved in this scenario. And it's a very difficult situation with a highly dysregulated pretty traumatized student that they were trying to get through that they'd been excluded from a couple of schools, they chose not to engage in education, they've chosen not to even verbalize how they were feeling. And the teachers involved in this school were genuinely feeling really challenged to tallyhelp. They thought, well, let's just try talking them through red to blue. And they did that they went through a couple of sessions, and then use the graphical representation that you've seen me yourself the back, brilliant, a very simple level, just to say, look, we have to talk a little bit about mindset. And here's a simple way of expressing it and the opportunity without necessarily teaching them the cognitive skills associated with it just to go look, here's a way of reflecting on where you are in that process led to this student re engaging in the education discussion, choosing as a body dysmorphic real subtle anxiety associated with choosing to get up and decide their own volition to go to the gym. So they attended class, they went to the gym. And then perhaps the most telling piece was that they made a video, wow,

 

Emma Smillie  21:42

somebody with all of that going on making a video in it without being filmed for a podcast. They are

 

Martin Fairn  21:47

they just said I'll talk about red to blue ellipse. But you know, what an amazing job really done by those teachers with that student, to give them a pathway through. And then I've worked with these amazing athletes, you've told me Jimmy, talk about them. And people come with passion sometimes. And people come with intense in intensity and everything that you grew up with as part of your personality and characteristic and is a really terrific young golfer we work with, and she's been challenged in the area of wanting to win everything she does from the age of about one apparently, if I had a mom and dad on the air, now they would say the same thing. And that translates into incredibly high expectations of myself now as a 17 year old. And that's not just on the golf course. But that's how it manifests itself in New York playing for your country and competing in high level competitions. And what blimey is learning now is the acknowledgement that the redhead response is hers, that it is fine doesn't need to come with judgment. But it is in fact unhelpful when those moments occur, and she's got this brilliant way of saying as soon as the ball has left my club, it's outside my control. So I only now have to manage my response to that situation. And acknowledging the highly emotional response sometimes comes with something that is not what you expected or wanted or plan. And then being able to then acknowledge that reset, where you put your attention in girl world in his world, that's about refocusing on the next shot, the next decision, all the things that go with that. And then she's taken that through into her exams and the world. She does that. Is she brilliantly mentally skillful in every moment? Definitely. She's still got plenty of work to do. But she knows it. And she's seeing that value in her answer to stories for me that really mean floods of the how people are taking her to bloom forward.

 

Emma Smillie  23:35

And how about you personally, have had an impact on you?

 

Martin Fairn  23:38

So there's an easy answer is yes. Though slightly longer answer is that when we talk about red to blue, and one of the techniques that we've taught, everybody who learns it, and we asked people to coach around is the ability to take a step back and see a slightly broader perspective on the situation that they're facing. We call that zooming out. Before you zoom back in on the task at hand, we would suggest that this is not new as a piece of advice. Taking a step back is a very helpful mindset approach where we're really feeling overwhelmed and under pressure and responding in an unhelpful way. And I found that particularly telling part of red to blue social media of the mindset approach, because everybody comes across trauma, difficult situations, uncomfortable scenarios. So I believe the message we're giving to the world, to the people we talk to, is, don't get trapped by this view that there shouldn't be any discomfort, there shouldn't be any pressure and everything will be fine to think positively. I'm not dismissing those people who find value in thinking positively. But for sure, everybody's going to have some moments in their lives and maybe multiple moments they're going to face Sure. And that might be trauma with a capital T and it's terrible and difficult. It's challenging and it's life changing. Or it might be trauma with a small t like I've just missed the bus. I really wanted to get frustrated. Whatever it is, we're going to explore If those difficulties that we're going to face the challenge mindset moments related to that, and just pausing long enough to take a step back to zoom out, can give you just a slightly different perspective, a slightly different view that allows you to maybe see your way through it. Without pretending thinking that way will make you feel happy. But just actually finding a way to navigate through it. Giving people that empowerment that choice. I find personally extraordinarily helpful with the different challenges I face.

 

Emma Smillie  25:28

As I listen to podcasts, and the high performance podcasts with Jason Fox, and he talks about his 10 Second Rule, in terms of responding to anything, just pausing for those 10 seconds.

 

Martin Fairn  25:37

Yeah, because people often think, Oh, you need to, again, not dismissing the value of meditation, or you need to step away, or you need to go take a walk around the block, or in the old days, go outside for a cigarette, whatever the current thing is to be what Jason Fox will know. And what other people recognize is just that very deliberate shift in mentality in perspective, zooming out for a moment, just gives you your mountain to redeploy your energy into a more helpful, thoughtful response to the situation, doesn't mean we get it right all the time doesn't mean our response is the best, amazing response, but it does give you space to decide, and that back can be truly valuable. Yeah,

 

Emma Smillie  26:17

takes practice, though, doesn't it? Not to just instinctively respond?

 

Martin Fairn  26:20

Yeah, no, I think that's why one of the breakthrough moments with us with red to blue is the fact that we position it as a skill, there's plenty of coaches who may not believe that there's, I'm sure plenty of leaders and coaches who think actually, there's another solution there just get really knowledgeable, really skillful, whatever it is you want to do. So then you take the diversion out of the sort of factory without by being totally skillful, totally knowledgeable. I just think as a vulnerability with with that. So we're saying actually become mentally skillful, perhaps will allow you to deal with all the difficulties, challenges and traumas that are coming your way and getting ready now to be ready when the when is when those tough moments occur. And that's the skill that you're learning. As you rightly say, the tougher the moments, the bigger the occasions and the more skillful we need to be.

 

Emma Smillie  27:05

Absolutely. One of the questions you want to touch on with communication is key. Have you seen where to really help people communicate better when they're under pressure?

 

Martin Fairn  27:14

Yeah, at the heart of what we started to do the right the way back to the beginning, we always believe in different areas in business generally, into leadership, the customer service and sales are all but but actually, life. Language is such a significant factor in people's ability to articulate how they feel, how they want to respond to how they feel a response to certain scenario. And often, the commonality of language gives us an easier pathway for that communication. So it's one of the reasons why as you go from red to blue, you get a simple, practical graphical map that just represents that common language in a way that is immediately easy to engage with and relate to. And so the common language we see working across all teams is designed to exactly do that it gives us an easy way to communicate in those difficult moments. And it does so because red versus blue is designed to come without judgment, it's more driven by observation. And then the common language in terms of how to help support any may will be a little bit of redhead response, time to get back on task can literally be the language that helps people reset in the moments that matter. It doesn't invalidate the seriousness of some of the situations we experience. But it may well give you just a common language to reset, refocus in the moment that matter. And then you can get to the review or reflection piece when the time is appropriate. So that's why I like the idea of common language just gets us all individually, collectively focused. Well, it matters.

 

Emma Smillie  28:43

I have actually seen that in a big exercise where we were introducing red to blue, and then people were talking in that language and sharing how they were feeling. So that makes perfect sense. If you don't recognize it, it's hard to verbalize that. And then it's hard for other people to understand where you are in your head at that moment. Yeah,

 

Martin Fairn  28:59

100%. So when the All Blacks talk about how they use red to blue, and they've been at it since 2009, working it into their culture, they talk about using the language on the field for themselves talking to themselves if they need to remind themselves, but actually engaging with others talking to others recognizing people's redhead responses, because as you get to know each other in a team in a situation and environment that matters, you get more able to go a little bit of a redhead response, they're back on task. You can remind people you can give people gentle acknowledgement, that that's where they need to be. And that's what you can do that to help in that situation. And it helps in Abby's race team. So we've got the engineer, the engineer, team and a coach are very aware of the common language often talk to Abby, Val, zooming out, just take a pause, take a breath. So that common language can be very helpful.

 

Emma Smillie  29:46

Have you seen any lessons from other sectors that we could apply in crisis management, the emergency response side?

 

Martin Fairn  29:54

I think that you do preparation, of course, in dealing with a response. I think that's natural And I imagine the debriefs following the support that you provided will be there. I mean, in any environment where performance in the moment really matters, the preparation to get ready and the reflection on what we did and how we did where to improve is always part of it. But what I have seen is the very deliberate, purposeful integration of mindset into that conversation. So I think to make sure in the preparation questions and the actions, and in the review, reflection questions just to ask, what role did our mentality play? Was there evidence of a redhead response? If we look at the situation? Was it contributed to by our mindset? And if it was, then what caused it? I would say, the explicit integration rather than implicit, can be really valuable, because some of the true learning comes when we're explicit about acknowledging the role mindset plays. Yeah,

 

Emma Smillie  30:51

I think there's probably more we can do in that debrief for sure. The last bit would be you're looking at how do you see red to blue evolving in the next five to 10 years, because I guess you started with the heads and added the extra tools to the shoe revolt,

 

Martin Fairn  31:04

we started with a bit more detail actually. So we started probably with too much detail, I think, where red to blue will evolve now is we've evolved into the broader, simpler picture. So it's made it more engaging, the young people made it more engaging in the moment, because of the simplicity of the overview version of the red to blue pads. The detail still needs to be there. I think what we're seeing now is that the development in numerology, the understanding our brains function, and some of the triggers that impacts how our brains actually work. I think that we can provide support for making that less complicated on the basis that not everyone either wants to be a brain surgeon or ever will be a brain surgeon. But we all have the capacity to fake the capacity to respond unhelpful. It's so I think the red to blue will evolve that way, bringing natural pathway to what we learn more about mindsets and pressure, the impacts and pressure, I think it will naturally evolve, because we need to digitize it, as committed as I am to deploy it through the foundation. And more broadly, we've got to have a digital answer. People are engaging digitally nowadays with their, with the different platforms that they can do that red to blue has to be available. So they can practically do that without removing the value of the human interface and machine interactions that people still see huge value in. So I think it will evolve that way going forward. And I think the more people that know about it, the greater the demand, there will be to get at it and understand how to use it. I

 

Emma Smillie  32:30

hope so because it's so useful in everyday life, not even just in performance moment, just in a parenting moment, or getting out the door moment, or let's say catching the best moment. Yeah,

 

Martin Fairn  32:40

man, I'm totally with. And in fact, if someone says 10 years on five years on, if we can just get to students, kids, young people in a way that helps them navigate through, I don't see the world getting any easier. And in fact, I think one could make a reasonable case says going the other way, if it is going to do that, and people are going to experience individuals, groups, families, the tough moments, the challenges they face then is red to blue, and the description of it, the delivery of it, the coaching around that just helps them understand that they've got a simple accessible framework. It represents how we respond mentally to different scenarios. And it gives us a pathway to take ownership of our mindset, just that in itself and not get caught up with stuff that we just can't control. But we set our attention, acknowledge how we feel and focus in on what we can be drawn. That's gold dust for me, if we can get that happening. That's really where we're headed.

 

Emma Smillie  33:32

If there was one thing, you'd want someone listening to this podcast to take away, what would that be?

 

Martin Fairn  33:41

I really would urge people to deliberately explicitly acknowledge the fact that mindset has a part to play in how we navigate our weights through our lives than that there is something that we can choose to do to affect how we individually respond to the challenges we face, and how we might be able to help others. And if you don't choose red to blue as a simple language, then find another way of doing but to shy away from the existence of mentality either as a problem to have mental health or an opportunity to help us do really well when it matters is a shame, because I think that's missing out on some of what makes us incredible creatures as humans.

 

Emma Smillie  34:24

Thank you, that was really, really interesting. I really enjoyed that discussion or went to blue. It's incredible the way it was doing. Well,

 

Martin Fairn  34:30

thank you. I know you already joined today's session, then I knew we'd cover all kinds of areas and there's more stories building everywhere we go and there's some stories you and I would not even know about that are just as amazing as the ones we've been to share. So that's what I love about what we do and I look forward to speaking again sometime in the future. Next batter.

 

Emma Smillie  34:50

Thank you for listening to the response force multiplier from SRL. Please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And stay tuned for more episodes. So we can see You should explore key issues in emergency response and crisis management for more information head to all spill response.com See you soon